MARK KRAMER: I am interested in the archive materials that are kept in Baku
Mark Kramer: "The US policy in the region is increasingly taking the importance of the Azerbaijani factor into account"
Rizvan Huseynov
Baku
Professor Mark Kramer is Director of the Cold War
Studies Program at Harvard University. He is the author of numerous scientific
articles and publications dedicated to the USSR's policies, the causes of the
collapse of the Soviet empire and the revolutionary developments and national
liberating movements in Eastern European and former Soviet countries. In early
May Prof. KRAMER visited Azerbaijan for the first time and kindly agreed to
talk to us.
- Professor Kramer, the West usually refers to the
USSR as "an empire of evil". As a person well familiar with the
region, what do you think of this?
- It depends on
the period in the USSR history you are referring to. If we speak about the
Stalin era, I do believe that the Soviet Union was an "empire of
evil" at the time. Stalin himself was a terrible dictator and Azerbaijan,
among others, seriously suffered from his policy. I know that Stalin initiated
repressions against the Azerbaijani people. He wanted to resettle the entire
Azerbaijani people to Kazakhstan and Siberia and it was through his order that
a large number of Azerbaijanis were resettled from Armenia in the 1940-1950s.
This however did not happen without the help of Stalin's comrade-in-arms,
Anastas Mikoyan. The latter was responsible for ethnic cleansing and
repressions against Azerbaijanis.
- How much of your work have
you dedicated to the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict over Karabakh, which was one
of the catalysts of the collapse of the USSR?
- I am delighted to have been given an opportunity to
work in the Baku archive. I am interested in the archive materials that are
kept here. I also intend to study documents pertaining to the beginning of the
Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict over Karabakh and its causes. I have already
conducted relevant work in the archives of Russia and other former Soviet
countries.
- As you know, Azerbaijan was
one of the first Soviet countries to start fighting for independence. To what
do you attribute the fact that the Soviet government was particularly
relentless in suppressing the national-liberating movement in Azerbaijan at a
time when it did not employ such large-scale punitive measures against other
republics?
- Mikhail Gorbachev
demonstrated weakness in the national policy. He took a pro-Armenian stance.
However, I do not think he intended to hand over Karabakh to Armenians.
Nevertheless, he should have countered Armenian separatism and Armenian
nationalists in Karabakh. By doing so he would have prevented the exacerbation
of the conflict. Instead of this, in January 1990, Gorbachev used force against
Azerbaijani people in Baku. That is to say, his moves fuelled the
Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict and left no room for the prevention of armed
confrontation.
- As early as in mid 1980s,
Gorbachev knew full well that Azerbaijanis were being banished from Armenia and
a separatist movement was starting in Karabakh. Nevertheless, he did not use
force against Armenian nationalists in Yerevan and Xankandi (Stepanakert).
- I understand your point. The thing is that at the
time Gorbachev was overwhelmed by the collapse of Communist regimes in Eastern
Europe, the ongoing unification of Germany and the fact that close ties between
the former Socialist bloc countries were falling apart. Gorbachev was
apprehended by all this and he feared that the same fate awaited the USSR. All
this resulted in his decision to deploy Soviet troops in Baku and brutally
attack Azerbaijani people in January 1990.
- Back on 21 February 1985, at his very first
politburo session, Gorbachev raised the issue of the necessity to hold various
events in the USSR in recognition of the 70th anniversary of the Armenian
"genocide". This caused mixed reaction among politburo members and
demonstrated the fact that Gorbachev was "not indifferent" to
Armenians.
- I do agree that Gorbachev's
behaviour was odd. However, we need to take into consideration the fact that
Armenian diaspora's influence extended to the West, as well as the Kremlin
itself at the time. The point is that Gorbachev's Armenian entourage strongly
influenced his decision-making, including regarding the Armenian-Azerbaijani
conflict. His advisors included G. Shakhnazarov, A. Migranyan, A. Agambegyan
and others. The role of the Armenian diaspora in the USA and Europe is also
significant in shaping Gorbachev's opinion regarding the Armenian-Azerbaijani
conflict.
- It is no secret that in the West Gorbachev is known
as a progressive and positive politician at a time when in former Soviet
countries he is associated with many negative developments of the period of the
collapse of the Soviet Union. What do you think of Gorbachev's role?
- I think people in former Soviet Union will have a
more positive opinion about his role in the future. He managed to stop the
senseless Cold War and arms race between the USSR and the USA. It is true that
Gorbachev made numerous mistakes in the Soviet Union's domestic policy. One of
such mistakes is the wrong attitude to Azerbaijan and the Karabakh conflict.
When it came to making snap brave decisions and assuming responsibility he was
often unpredictable and inconsistent.
- Do you think it was possible
to prevent the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict?
- I think that until the end of the year 1989 and even
1990 it was possible to address the Karabakh conflict differently and prevent
the bloody war. However, the Soviet authorities failed to use this
chance.
- What do you think of Azerbaijan's intention to
return its lands, currently occupied by Armenian troops, at any cost?
- I opposed the deployment of NATO troops in Serbia in
the 1990s and the subsequent recognition of Kosovo as an independent state. I
also opposed Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008 and the recognition of
Abkhazia's and South Ossetia's sovereignty. I am against any attempts to
resolve the Karabakh conflict by such methods. I support countries' territorial
integrity.
- What do you make of the fact that the West sometimes
toes Armenian line and does not take sufficient effort to speedily resolve the
Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict, something that could lead to an unprecedented
leap in the development of the South Caucasus?
- The point is that the
Armenian factor and diaspora play an important role in the USA's and Europe's
sociopolitical life. For example, in the USA Armenians can influence decisions
of local authorities. They also take an active part in elections and other
political events which is why American politicians pay heed to their opinion.
Nevertheless, I can see that the USA's interest in Azerbaijan is steadily
increasing. This is linked to Azerbaijan's great potential which cannot be
disregarded by American politicians. It is very beneficial for the USA to
develop cooperation with Azerbaijan, both in economic and political terms
because the US policy in the region is increasingly taking the importance of
the Azerbaijani factor into consideration.
- As a rule, when it comes to
Azerbaijan and profitable cooperation, the first thing that comes to people's
mind is oil and gas. What else could Azerbaijan offer to the international
community?
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